Who says chivalry is dead? Not Larry Flynn!

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

Linkage

Enjoy!

[Diomedes]

Linkage

Enjoy!

Yeah, I spotted that one at work too XD

I sort of hope he gets something more than a slap on the wrist.  911 exists for a reason and vigilante justice isn't for this day and age IMHO.

[Andrew (I2ed3ye)]

I don't know.. playing a DVD so loud you can hear the screaming below their apartment?  Porn is supposed to be a private thing.  I know I get to the point of busting down a door when people have their bass up to 200 dB at 3 AM.  Punishing a would-be act of Citizen's Arrest doesn't sound very promising.  It's not like the guy was out of his socks and slashing until he found a victim.  Although he may need to spend a little time away from his Mom and fantasy films.     I think a fine for compensatory and punitive damages would be enough judging how the story is told.

"Kicked open the door with no warning."  I think pounding on it is fair enough warning.  Somebody breaks in to my apartment, I would say more than repeat whatever they said to me.  How about.. "I was watching porn, get the hell out of my house!"  And was he fully clothed in his encounter with the sword?  Even more perculiar!

[Diomedes]

I don't know.. playing a DVD so loud you can hear the screaming below their apartment?  Porn is supposed to be a private thing.  I know I get to the point of busting down a door when people have their bass up to 200 dB at 3 AM.  Punishing a would-be act of Citizen's Arrest doesn't sound very promising.  It's not like the guy was out of his socks and slashing until he found a victim.  Although he may need to spend a little time away from his Mom and fantasy films.     I think a fine for compensatory and punitive damages would be enough judging how the story is told.

Did the article mention how loud it was playing at?  I lived in some pretty crowded apartments in Chicago where the walls were like paper.  I could /easily/ hear anything said in a conversational tone of voice (which made me paranoid and I started playing music 24/7 to mask my conversations)

But breaking down someone's door with a weapon out and taking a tour of the house (which is apparently under debate) /isn't/ the sort of thing that I would want happening to me.  If he had an issue, he had a phone.  He could have at least called 911 /before/ he smashed down the door.  I guess if you don't believe that punishment can act as a deterrent, then a fine is alright, but I believe some punishments do act as a deterrent.  If someone was thinking about smashing down my door and pulling a weapon on me, I'd like for them to think long and hard about the repercussions, then do something rational like dial the police.

[Diomedes]

There's actually some pretty good information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_arrest

Note particularly that American citizens do not have the authorities or the legal protections of the police, and are liable before both the civil law and criminal law for any violation of the rights of another.

All states other than North Carolina permit citizen arrests if a felony crime is witnessed by the citizen carrying out the arrest, or when a citizen is asked to help apprehend a suspect by the police.

And I'd specify that he didn't witness anything, he merely had some evidence and jumped to a conclusion.

The particularly damning things in my mind is (1) he didn't notify the authorities and (2) he used a weapon.  Use of force is /highly/ restricted in the US which, despite my freedom loving tendencies, I believe is a good thing.  Had he instead, say, broken down the door and told the man to stop, that the police were coming, etc, he might have been able to halt an act of rape (if one was actually occurring) without the use of force, and would have alerted the authorities (who need to be alerted anyhow).  He didn't, he took the law into his own hands which is something we have numerous laws against.

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

I have a battle ax and I WILL use it if you listen to Spongebob Squarepants too loud!!!

[Mike (jp / Jopan)]

And I'd specify that he didn't witness anything, he merely had some evidence and jumped to a conclusion.

Since you chose to use Wikipedia for the Citizen's Arrest quotes, I think it's only fair to reciprocate with a Wikipedia link for "witness".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness

A witness is someone who has firsthand knowledge about a crime or dramatic event through their senses (e.g. seeing, hearing, smelling, touching) and can help certify important considerations to the crime or event. A witness who has seen the event firsthand is known as an eye-witness.

According to that, he did witness a perceived crime. If there had, in fact, been a rape occurring, merely hearing it happen constitutes being a witness.

/devil's advocate

[Diomedes]

As no felony crime was committed, it seems reflexive to state that he did not witness a felony crime.  I'll agree he was a witness in the same sense that I just witnessed my boss walking past my cube.

That's the sort of mistake that the police are protected and "allowed" to make under specific conditions (probable cause, etc).

Next time I use the word witness, I'll qualify it better if you'd like

[Mike (jp / Jopan)]

Well, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, and as I stated in my post there was a perceived crime, a perceived felony crime at that. (Rape is a felony, after all.) This man was witness to the perceived crime.

So regardless of whether or not there was a crime, he WAS a witness to it, which in turn permits Citizen's Arrest.

And of course, since there was no actual crime and he is not protected under law in the same fashion as police are, I'd sue his ass, too.

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

I love these forums...

[Mike (jp / Jopan)]

So do I... people actually post! *gasp*

[Diomedes]

Well, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, and as I stated in my post there was a perceived crime, a perceived felony crime at that. (Rape is a felony, after all.) This man was witness to the perceived crime.

So regardless of whether or not there was a crime, he WAS a witness to it, which in turn permits Citizen's Arrest.
[/quote]

Didn't the article (if it's correct) only mention that the citizen's arrest was permissible when a crime was committed, not a "perceived crime"?  In other words, if you're going to bust out a citizen's arrest, you'd better be damn sure otherwise what you're doing isn't permitted.  Again, I'll agree that he WAS a witness in the same sense that I just witnessed myself typing a post, but not in the sense of witnessing a crime (the needed condition).  Perception or not.  While our laws have some wiggle room in them for intention and purpose, there's a certain punishment that still gets attached.  For example, if I kill a man because I believe he was pulling a gun on me (but it was actually a wallet) I can't get away with self defense, perception or not.

And of course, since there was no actual crime and he is not protected under law in the same fashion as police are, I'd sue his ass, too.

Absolutely, if I was "interrupted" I'd be angry as heck

[Mike (jp / Jopan)]

I'm not saying the Citizen's Arrest was permissible, it wasn't. A perceived crime doesn't constitute a crime. What I am saying, though, is that he was witness to it. That's the only point I was contending. You said he didn't witness anything, I say he did.

And I guess, that said, my last post did say Citizen's Arrest was permitted by his witness to a non-existent crime. (See foot -> Insert mouth.) What I meant was, it was permissible in his mind. He witnessed what he thought was a crime and he attempted to stop it. In turn, it was him who broke the law and he'll be the one paying for the crime.

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

I think carrying  a sword... anywhere... much less while busting (pun, get it???) into someone's private property is the root of his problems.  I've got some hand to hand weapons in my house (I like them and collect them) but taking them to someone else's house, even when invited and the weapons are expected, is questionable.

I'm babbling... it's what I do.

[Diomedes]

I'm babbling... it's what I do.

<cough>

postcount++;

</cough>

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

I'm babbling... it's what I do.

<cough>

postcount++;

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ZOMG KETTLE!!!!!

[Mike (jp / Jopan)]

Meh, I must protest...

+=postcount;

[Alex (Riptearkill)]

in my opinion he did what was right i think he should have to pay for all property damages and apologize but i think if what he said is correct he was right in trying to stop a potential rape, that and i think it would be awesome to use some warrior skills in  real life and *charge* *hamstring* and *execute crit*

[Andrew (I2ed3ye)]

Anyways.. I wouldn't push charges if someone was banging on my door trying to stop a rape and broke it down because I was too busy getting my winky-dinky covered up to answer the door in a timely manner.  I can hear people moaning outside.. they can hear me yell I'm going to call the cops if they don't go away.

Sort of reminds me of a few times when I almost broke the door when someone didn't answer when I knocked on our bathroom door.  Never know if they're just intimidated of taking a big one or if they're passed out in water from a fall.

I just think harshly punishing someone for their concern sets a bad example on impressionable minds.  "Only try to protect the innocent when you are 100% for sure certain that a crime has already been committed."  Those precious moments are the difference between having to tell someone you didn't act soon enough to save their loved one's life or paying for a broken door worth a very finite amount of money and heart-pumping.