a survey for raka

[Raka]

i was having a discussion with a couple of my friends recently about sexuality, and i'd like to make an unofficial freestyle survey...
id like to know about peoples attitudes to relationships and sexuality... either your own, or your opinion on the subject.  please keep it mature, honest, and civil

im a straight male, 18 on the 15th of may. ive been in a relationship for 8 months with a taiwanese new zealander, and its honest and we get on really well.

a friend of mine is 16 (girl) and is in a relationship with a 23year old (guy), and i was suprised at the amount of negative feelings towards them...
another friend is 18(guy) with a 27yearold (girl)... and their friends havent supported them, only based on age. all of them are fine people, and are in  'loving' relationships, if you can accept that people age ~18 can experience love.  maybe a better phrase would be 'emotional relationship' since some (adults) have said that love cant be experienced by people under a certain age.               opinion on age differences, anecdotes?

i was suprised by how many girls that i know are bisexual, and 1 that i have known since childhood only likes girls... with the fear of being labelled a homophobe, im not completely comfortable with flamboyant gays... however its not actually a problem with homosexuals. i know about 15~ bisexual girls, 2~ bisexual guys and 1 lesbian girl, who i would consider my friends...

but the way that some people react to just a rumour that someone is gay can be hateful or even violent, and i was wondering what everyone elses societies think about this

-with regards to the Code of Conduct, please keep this civil and mild as is intended, and if jagor feels this is inappropriate for our forums, then i accept that without argument

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

It's appropriate as long as people keep it mature and act like adults... which these forums actually have a really good track record with.  To show my support for this thread I'll make the first response.

First, I'll speak towards age differences in relationships.  I don't think age, per se, is or should be a deciding factor in a relationship.  Maturity, however, often is (and very well should be).  I know people who are very young who are actually very mature and those people generally only mesh well with people somewhat older than themselves.  Of course, I also know people who are immature for their age and they tend to mesh well only with people who are younger, but that can often cause issues.  The problem on age differences comes in when one of the people is an age which isn't yet considered an "adult."  Legally, adults in the US are 21, but realistically 24-25 is what I have found to be the time when people begin to discover who they are enough to be considered "mature."  Really, it's the impressionability that defines it, so as always your mileage may vary. 

A 23 year old guy with a 16 year old girl would be specifically off-limits in my book.  I have a 16 year old sister and I have to be honest, a 23 year old "man" with a 16 year old "girl" is borderline predatory.  Of course, I'm sure people will vary on this.  From my point of view I would be willing to get violent with any "man" who is willing to introduce a "girl" to an "adult" relationship during her formative and impressionable years.  From experience with someone I know, someone entering into an adult relationship at 16 years old runs a risk of seriously stunting their emotional growth.  In many places the government has laws in place to prevent this as statutory rape.

With that said, once the girl was 23-24 the age difference would be a non-issue.  Again, it's back to differences in maturity.  A girl (or boy) at 16 is hardly mature... If they are emotionally and mentally mature they are very unlikely to be sexually mature (no matter how hard they would try to convince you otherwise).  And by mature I don't mean the "ability to perform" I mean the responsibility to know how, when and why.

As for homosexuals, I've known people and had friends who were everywhere on the board with their sexual preference.  The only person I have ever had a true problem with was a particularly militant lesbian I once worked with.  She would actually introduce herself as, "Hi, I'm [name], I'm a lesbian."  She looked for any opportunity to flaunt her lesbian status and wore it as both a badge of honor and a chip on her shoulder.  She was pushy, mean, violent and relentless in her pursuit of making sure everyone knew she was to be respected... not because of her merits as a person or professional but because of her sexual orientation.  It was her attitude which was the turnoff and to this day I haven't met anyone else I would make a snap judgment against because of sexual orientation.

In the end, I don't run around saying "Hi, I'm Donnie, I'm a heterosexual..."  So anyone who makes a point to make it my business that they are gay is likely looking for some sort of reaction from me, some sort of approval from me or some sort of respect from me.  Of course, many times they don't understand that just like I won't disrespect them for their lifestyle I also won't respect them for it.  Each person must earn my respect or disrespect in the same way, regardless of gender, race, religion or anything else.

Towards your society question, it seems that in the US very recently being gay was so frowned upon that you could be fired for making it public.  Within a few short years, however, it stopped seeming so taboo and began to even seem fashionable.  The "fashionable" nature voiced in the media spawns many, many, many media showcases of the gay lifestyle.  In 10 years the US went from shunning the mention of the gay lifestyle in the media to embracing it for ratings and money.  Because of the short time frame of this change people have divided into two small and loud camps, one is the conservative camp who is more traditional and is outright against anything homosexual and the other is the militant homosexual crowd.  In the middle, there is a much quieter majority who are being shoved back and forth by lobbyists and lawmakers from the fringe groups.  To venture a guess, I'd say that each fringe group is a 10% figure and the more moderate group is 80% or so.  Of course, you hear much more from the loud minority, which isn't that uncommon in our sensationalist media nowadays.

I could say more, I think... But I'll leave this for discussion for the time being to see what other people think and only add my thoughts where requested.  Keep it nice, guys.

[Jay (Shadowdwellr)]

Well this is a strange topic but interesting.

First sexual preference is something i feel is to be personal. Like Donnie said we don't go around Hi i am such and such and i am a blahblah. So as far as i am concerned there kept it personal if i happen to find out or figure out what ever the situation may be i am not going to judge i have  known ppl of all sexual preference and it is their business not mine.

Second the age thing its a very touchy for most ppl i think. but for a 23yr male with a 16yr female sry in my book you aren't treading that line you have crossed over and made yourself comfortable

[Raka]

 on one side is the view that 16year old are not responsible (as they are not considered legally adults til 18), and therefor making sex not illegal will encourage 16-17yearolds to experiment

contact between 2 15yearolds is considered statutory rape, and is an offense... however (although they are most definitely not ready) i find it hard that the concept of 'guilt' could be applied to either of them.

i would agree with the 24-25 being sorta a firm adult personality. however i know an 18year old who is every bit an adult, and i met a guy who was 32 and as reactive and transparent as a child.

on the other side, raising the age and making sex technically illegal between under 18y/o would have (only) negative connotations imo.  cause whether people like to believe it or not, it will happen.  im not arguing the morality of this, and it is most definitely situational.
 
please be aware that making sex illegal between under 18s is not effective (i would say it is a monumental failure).  what IS important is suitable education, properly administered and with tact and subtlety.  at school we had sex education for 2 hours a year at age 10-12, which basically covered how babies are made  at 13-14 we had maybe 10 hours education, with one hour a week for the length of a term... and this imo was very effective.  the program that runs in new zealand accepts that being attracted to the opposite gender is a thing which people experience, and the course briefly covered using condoms, the pill, and significantly more time to first abstinence, STIs, how to prevent them, abstinence, and a woman giving birth. 

all of this was extremely traumatic, but a couple of years later when it may have been an issue, people knew what to do.  tell a room full of students that there are 6million separate bacteria living down below, and they will become extremely reluctant about anything... " :ohe wants to put it WHERE? "

allow me to clarify on the age thing... 16 is the "age of consent" in new zealand... i was basing the situation of 16 and 23 as being just at age of consent, and i see from the reactions that there are differences.  to dlarify, the girl im thinking of is 2 months shy of 17, and i would consider her to be equally responsible as (say) someone who is 19 or 20.  this was the biggest age gap i could think of at age 16 (nearly 17) and, knowing her, think that its not an obscene difference.

imo late 20s is where a man is definitely a man and should not be interested in any girl 19 or less

sisters are different though... im sorta critical of anyone interested in my  sister lawl.  but once theyve been around a few months im reasonable 

[Deliverence (SilentPlague)]

Here is a question to answer

If a 16 yr old boy sleeps with a 23 yr old women hes looked at as a hero in his peers eyes
If a 16 yr old girl sleeps with a 23 yr old man shes looked at as with contempt and discust by her peers  ?



The problem with America is we where founded by Strict Religious followers and while this isn't per say a terrible thing it has made are country less tolerable of what is considered not the norm. Europe is way more understanding of gays and lesbians years ago then we are today.
Nudity is a taboo thing here in the states wheres as in Europe they have nude news broadcasts and people dont look twice.
most drinking ages in Europe are 16 and below.

If a 16 yr old boy sleeps with a 23 yr old women hes looked at as a hero in his peers eyes
If a 16 yr old girl sleeps with a 23 yr old man shes looked at as with contempt and discust by her peers  ?  <--- this whole scenario comes from the same place. Men are suppose to be mescaline and conquers and take care of there families. Go off to war or whatever else physical comes up.  Women are suppose to be delicate flowers who are respectful of the men and raise the children. They are not suppose to show independence or sexual freedom and if they do have it they are never to flaunt it. This is the thoughts and values are country was formed on . I understand i might be taking it a little to the extreme but its not that fare off. 

America when it first started relied alot on its government for telling them how to do things. This is the same strict catholic government  that wanted to kill the Indians because they didn't live in houses or have what they considered real jobs. They didn't understand them and didn't take the time to. Are people gave away alot of its personal freedoms in its way of thinking along time ago when it was formed. Europe on the other hand has been around for hundred of years and has been through being told what to do and revolted against it.

This is not meant to offend anyones religion or upset people in anyway. I just believe alot of are tolerance problems and views on relationships we have in the states is caused by the people who founded are country and the current government forcing there views on us ( gay marriage issue.)

on a Side note i spent 4 days in Amsterdam when i was 18,  there drinking age i believe was 15 . The so called "pot" is legal there in shops as well. I saw kids 16 yrs olds drinking and nude women in windows and people enjoying life to a extent i had never seen in all the places i have been i the states. More tourist die there from doing stupid shit taking advantage of the drug tolerant culture then the people who actually live there. The highest crime is pick pocking  and the crime rate is lower then any major city in the states. Now  don't through out some smart remark about how people are to stoned or messed up to commit crimes and work. Amsterdam's nick name is City of Diamonds because it is the largest exporter of diamonds in the world.

 

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

@Raka

The way I understand the statutory rape laws is that they don't punish equal age / maturity relationships, only those deemed predatory.  For instance, two 15 year olds get caught having sex there's nothing (from a legal standpoint) wrong with that.  However, a 23 year old man with a 16 year old girl would qualify as a crime.

Not offering more opinions atm, just clarifying what I understand the laws to state.

[Bane]

nice response Donnie...you just got a lot of "rep" with me man.

I think that maturity is the more important issue, much more than age.  The old testament is full of 30 40 or older men with teenage
wives. Many things that were done in the old days are no longer acceptable in modern society, and that's a good thing. Stoning your
 kids to death for disrespecting their parent, ya, a bit much.

 There is a double standard in the world,  we all know it exist. Guys who sleep around are studs, girls are sluts. I don't agree with it,
and have tried not to perpetuate it in my own family. Sadly its the extremist who grab the spotlight and yell the loudest.Radical
religious zealots permeate the area I live in, I hate them all. God help the ones who ever knock on my door. I never hesitate to tell them
the origins or their misbegotten religious beliefs.

[Raka]

gay "marriage" is not right to be named as such imo, but i do support civil unions which give the same rights

ie. partners dont have to testify against each other
recognition as a couple for legal reasons.

i recognise that my perspective on the age thing is different because of the legal age here, and also because the 16-->23 year old couple that i am thinking of is mature and approved by both sets of parents, and perhaps im talking at cross purposes.

to jagor, youre absolutely right about the maturity and it is entirely situational.

and with response to your militant lesbian "MY NAME IS [NAME] AND IM A LESBIAN??!!! YOU GOT A PROBLEM???!!eleven"

that made me laugh cause there was someone like that on a bus >.<  early 30's, bright dyed red hair cut short, and she was incredibly loud.  that was the worst hour on a bus evarr :O  thank god some other poor sod was sitting next to her

[Alex (Riptearkill)]

i think that homosexuality is morally wrong but nobody has a right to discriminate them its their right to have a private life they should have all the benefits normal people do with marriage.

[Raka]

you think its wrong but noone has a right to discriminate?


steady steady my friend. is it MORALLY wrong? really?

all the benefits normal people do with marriage.

lets discuss for example... tessa (not her real name). tessa is 25, a law graduate, a daughter, a lawyer, and plays the piano and enjoys swimming.

due to her internal 'wiring' she is unable to be attracted to men. her relationships at highschool with boys were short, and she felt uncomfortable with any physical attention, and quickly broke off the relationships.  i can guarantee that when you talk to her she is absolutely normal, and unless the topic specifically comes up you would have no idea that she is a lesbian (and there is much prejudice attached to the concept).
ive had it explained to me, and im paraphrasing here, but it doesnt feel right for homosexuals to be with someone of the opposite sex in the same way that you may be repelled or uncomfortable with the idea of same-sex relationships.

homosexuality has a flat rate of occurance worldwide, it's not a 'new' thing.  something you may find interesting is that there is a percentage occurance of homosexuality in animals, which dont have emotional relationships in the same way that humans do, and it is this more than anything that persuaded me that while homosexuality is in a way 'unnatural' as it does not continue our species, it is 'natural' in that it occurs at an even rate across the human race.

'would you object to having a gay couple live next door?'     (this was a question asked in a survey sampling from many nations worldwide)

please consider your answer.
-why would you mind?
-is that really the real reason?


statements such as 'ive got nothing against gays but i hope i never meet one' are misleading and self-deceptive. 

[Alex (Riptearkill)]

the point of sex is to reproduce, you cannot reproduce homosexually therefore i think it is "wrong", you say it occurs naturally but does that doesnt stop it from being a defect, what about downs syndrome and autism they both can occur naturally and people discriminate against them all the time with phrases like "thats retarded"

[Raka]

downs syndrome and autism they both can occur naturally and people discriminate against them all the time

i think you will find that people with physical and mental disabilities receive far more care, as is human nature. people have a compulsion to care for their own, and if its a disabled little brother, someone is sure as hell gonna stand up because they cant do it themselves.

the point of sex is to reproduce

is it really? i dont know many woman who go and look for the hottest man possible, have sex and intentionally gets herself pregnant merely based on  physical attractiveness instead of compatibility or common long-term goals.  i would go so far as to say that merely mating with the sole purpose of making the strongest offspring is not a human trait.  human relationships are infinitely complex, and sex is one part of a relationship.

say there is a switch inside peoples mind or personality or whatever, which tells them what they are attracted to... and some peoples 'defect' is that they form emotional relationships and are physically attracted to the same gender.

once you accept that youi cant make the gay people un-gay, what would you like to happen?

i think that homosexuality is morally wrong but nobody has a right to discriminate them its their right to have a private life they should have all the benefits normal people do with marriage.

doesnt stop it from being a defect

now thats some serious contradicting.

situation 1 - it is a defect, and therefor the people 'suffering' from this need to be treated as normally as possible (same as with mental disabilities) to encourage them to live in a way that is as close to normal as possible.
situation 2- its not a defect, therefor discrimination is wrong.

i think the comparison to a disability such as downs syndrome is ridiculous, and im phrasing those two situations with regards to that.

disabled people need special care and attention to live a life close to normal.
gays should be free from being shunned or disrespected based on their sexuality, or the mistreatment could lead to them being bitter or actually having emotional issues.

People say 'thats retarded' as in stunted or not properly grown, or as in stupid, through popular use, which has become acceptable.
calling a retarded person a retard  shows strong prejudice and is absolutely not acceptable... call a disabled person on a bus a retard, and at the best you will get filthy looks, and at the worst someone will punch you in the face.

Calling a person gay as in stupid, or girly, is quasi-acceptable amongst teenagers through common use.
However calling a gay person gay in a hateful way, to cause discomfort, shame, or to make them feel inferior is equally unacceptable and says far more about the person who uses it than it does about the target.

What about, for example, improper refracting of light in your corneas? Are you saying this is a defect that should be stamped out, and people who need glasses arent "normal"?? The moral answer is that people with a serious disability still deserve human compassion, as do people with imperfections such as an extra toe, or who are short sighted, or gay.  thing is, that of these examples, someone autistic needs lots of care, and the others need nothing more than your acceptance, or at the very least polite tolerance

[Alex (Riptearkill)]

the point of sex is to reproduce, it feels good so people will be more inclined to do it. most people do it just for the good feeling im not sure how you can dispute the point of it. i'm not condoning any type of discrimination or insulting, all im saying is that yes while being gay might be natural it isnt right because it defeats the purpose of reproducing if it doesnt produce anything like sterile people (who arent discriminated against). I'm not sure what you're talking about im not anti gay i could really care less wat someones sexual orientation is unless they are extremely loud and flamboyant about it i dont see any reason why someone would want to parade around a defect.

[Raka]

i was answering with regards to "morally wrong".  people do, and should object to things that are morally wrong, but i definitely dispute the label of immoral.  Would you consider it more acceptable if two women or men were 'in love' but slept in separate beds? Would you consider it more acceptable if whatever proportion of people that are homosexual lived in either sexual or emotional isolation?  Or maybe youd just rather not think about it (which is probably what most people incline towards).

Animals are driven to have sex to reproduce, and so are we. However humans have additional concerns, and people do not select mates based PURELY on continuing the species, but at a basic level yes, a couple having sex without protection does further our animal instinct of making lots of babies to replace us. Im sure you knowthat humanity has no problem with replacing its population, theres billions of us and a replacement rate of significantly above the necessary 2.1 children per woman.  Does your concern for continuing the population extend anywhere outside of this argument? What about endangered species?

I think the answer may be 'no'.

Here i speculate, but i think gay people are flamboyant in groups because many of them experience discrimination and want to be themselves (thats a political word, and i use it to mean any bad treatment they receive as a result of their sexuality), and partly because CELEBRATING gay-ness would really piss off the type of people that persecute them.  I doubt that they are parading their 'defect', but

about im not anti gay

 
so you dont care if the couple in the next apartment is 2 guys?

i guess thats the acid test for absolutely being comfortable with other peoples sexuality...

You are allowed to be slightly uncomfortable with homosexual relationships. that was definitely my position until i took the time to discuss it, and tried a little understanding.  i know im playing devils advocate, RipTearKill, and i thank you for following through with all of your posts.

[Alex (Riptearkill)]

i wouldnt really care if i had gay neighbors. i have a male friend who is bisexual hes a nice guy the only type of people i feel uncomfortable with are the people that flout themselves as if its something to be proud of

[Raka]

Yea i hate that too tbh, sure party, just dont party like a fag haha 

and i say that in the way that means that they are doing something that offends people only because it offends people... being considerate goes 2-ways

[Raymond (Hodges)]

After a certain age a several year difference in age isn't really cared about but seriously.  A 16 year old going out with some 23 year old dude is pretty fucked up.  The 18 and 27 relationship is pretty bad too.  As for the thing about girls being bisexual,is trendy to be gay or bisexual these days.  http://encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Fake_Bisexual  Seriously, most 'bisexuals' are losers trying to prove how open they are with their sexuality.  Also Raka, I too feel  uncomfortable around brazenly gay people.  I don't think people should be broadcasting their deviant lifestyles with reckless abandon.