Politics!

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

I think living 'tax free' would be beyond what we could do.  A flat sales tax of 25% would solve a lot of issues in my opinion (or whatever the number ended up being).

Picture this for a second.  However much money the Federal government collects in taxes would be instead distributed directly into the economy.

Read this:  http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/taxes/ustax.shtml

Income taxes were created during and to fund the Union during the Civil War.

From that article, and written by Thomas Jefferson:

'To take from one, because it is thought his own industry and that of his father has acquired too much, in order to spare to others who (or whose fathers) have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, ''to guarantee to everyone free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it.'''

[Alex (Riptearkill)]

You mentioned tariffs as a way to make money, I see tariffs as a barrier to free trade. What do you think?

[Donnie (Arne)]

It is a barrier to free trade.  Although, one could argue it is also implemented to protect domestic commodities such as produce. 

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

Recently a friend told me (I have no sources) that 85% of the brocolli grown in the US is exported... and 85% of the brocolli we eat is imported.

Regardless of whether or not that is true I do know that similar cases exist.  Placing a tariff on imported /.exported goods means you should look to get or keep it here first, elsewhere second.

At the same time, trade with other countries should be encouraged.  Embargos and things of that nature HAVE to stop because they do not work!

[Andrew (I2ed3ye)]

Being an experienced produce man (har-har!), I would say that would be true about broccoli.  Very few things we sell at the grocery store, fresh anyways, are actually grown in the US.  Mostly just berries and citrus from Florida and California.  Most of the fruits and veggies come from Chile, Mexico, and some weird names I can't remember and don't know how to say.   

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

Being an experienced produce man (har-har!), I would say that would be true about broccoli.  Very few things we sell at the grocery store, fresh anyways, are actually grown in the US.  Mostly just berries and citrus from Florida and California.  Most of the fruits and veggies come from Chile, Mexico, and some weird names I can't remember and don't know how to say.   

I'm finally at an actual computer!

Yeah, my point on that is that the US is one of the very few countries who could, if we were resourceful, be completely self-sufficient and in my opinion we should strive towards that goal.  That way, the trade we do with other countries will be for luxuries (therefore tariffs would be acceptable) or necessities we can't get here (tariff exemptions).  This would eliminate the sway other countries hold in our government and (hopefully) force the government to choose wars based on (gasp) national defense policy rather than things like oil reserves. 

[Alex (Riptearkill)]

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_buy_american
that is basically my opinion of tariffs

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_buy_american
that is basically my opinion of tariffs

I think you linked that before?  If not I recall reading it from somewhere.

I understand what that is talking about and it is referring more to an isolationist approach.  "Trade with all countries, allies with none..." is, at least in my opinion, a more healthy approach.  And taking a bit of money spent rather than money earned is a more acceptable form of taxation.

Just to make sure I'm clear, I do not in any way oppose a sales tax.  Someone commented earlier that "how would we pay for police, schools, etc" when the fact is those are covered by sales taxes which are imposed by the state and local governments.  This number varies from location to location, but where I live it's anywhere from 5% - 10% depending on where you shop.  I'm happy to pay 10% to the merchants that are located in my home town because I know the money is going to those programs which I see work every day... additionally... it's only 10%.

My problem is specifically with income tax.  I notice that a lot of you folks posting are young and have your careers ahead of you.  If you don't see a problem with an income tax now, wait until you bust your ass for 10 years to make more money only to be at the very bottom of a tax bracket.  You end up "making" more money but taking home less!

So Rip... given the choice would you take a 60% income tax enforced on your paycheck or a 80% tariff placed on imported alcohol, dairy and tobacco products?

[Alex (Riptearkill)]

In principle i dont like either. An 80% tariff seems extremely high to the point it's prohibitive to buy anything affected by the tariff, on the other hand I dont ever plan on buying alcohol or tobacco so I would rather pay more for dairy products than get 60% of my income taken away because in the end it will cost me far less.

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

In principle i dont like either. An 80% tariff seems extremely high to the point it's prohibitive to buy anything affected by the tariff, on the other hand I dont ever plan on buying alcohol or tobacco so I would rather pay more for dairy products than get 60% of my income taken away because in the end it will cost me far less.

The tariffs would only be on imported goods... So fine cheeses, wines, etc are what would fall into that category.  Generally things produced locally would not carry a tariff because they weren't imported / exported.

Some things would be exempt, of course, if it was something that was a necessity that you could only get elsewhere (but the US has very few of those things).  While other things which were purely luxury items (Ferarris, for example) would likely be taxed at 100% or more.

If you are taxed on your income as we are now, you lose your money before you ever had it.  If you were taxed when you were spending then you would have the ability to choose not to spend on luxuries like wine if you needed the money to pay medical bills for an accident you had instead.  As it is now, if you needed that money for medical bills you're just screwed because your employer is required by law to send it to the government instead of you.  I just think it would solve a lot of money issues for a lot of people if we were to convert to a flat sales tax system, even if the sales tax was a (seemingly) large amount to most people.

Of course, the overarching problem with all of this is Federal government accountability and spending... which is another issue altogether. 

[Alex (Riptearkill)]

Would you consider yourself a minarchist

[DoB (Strathe)]

Given what I do for a living and where I work... public schools... I find that aside from double, triple, and sometimes quadruple taxation on money that I make and money that my company makes is that no matter how much we spend on taxation or dodging taxation, it is the government spending that is the problem. While I know first hand the obvious flaws in spending due to being a government entity, until this is fixed, no matter what tax reform, repeal, removal, change, insert favorite buzzword of the day by government money grubbers here, it won't matter. They will always ask for more money and we will be obliged to pay it.

Society has a way of screwing us like that. While individuals are intelligent, people are stupid.

Any government office basically operates in the fashion of spend it or we lose it. Doesn't matter what we spend it on, just spend it. We just bought $XXX amount of product that we don't need yet we need to repair the roof a building. We will go to the people and levy a tax against them stating that the buildings are in disrepair and that it will last for the next 3 years to pay for building A's roof. While at the end of the levy, they will extend it as there is small print there in the levy lingo that can state things like extensions without voters approval based on needs of building maintenance for such a period of time as stated by the original passing of the levy. Once this time is used up, we can say to the people that if they let the levy end, we will lose our buildings etc etc and basically guilt people into renewing levies.

This whole manner of taxation is quite undoubtedly annoying as it really never ends. Their mantra is it is money that you are already paying, not like you need it...

To truly back any of the folks that are going to try and run for presidency is insane at this point because we all know that it is going to end up voting for the lesser of two evils. Given what we know about Bush part duex, I wonder now if it wouldn't have been better to have Kerry in there... let alone not electing W in the first place.

As far as tariff's are concerned, would it not be better for our country to be more self sufficient than to rely on other countries for their products? I heard an interesting statement made today regarding American Auto's. I don't know if this is true, but if it is I am very appalled at what is going on in this industry. According to this source, our exported automobiles have a 100% tariff placed against them in European countries. Now i don't know about the rest of you folks, but if this is the case what are we doing? Foreign countries are up in arms when it comes to us leaning tariff's on their exports to our country, but how often do we even hear of how much they do it to our goods that we export? While I don't watch the news regularly, when I do I hardly hear anything about this type of stuff.

[Alex (Riptearkill)]

I'm assuming in part that the automobile tariff is due to emission and mpg standards that are higher in Europe than in the US

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

Where did you get that information?

German cars have to meet exacting national standards, Japanese cars meet exacting (self imposed) company standards.  Both take a level of pride in craftsmanship and performance that we don't have in the US.

[Mike (jp / Jopan)]

That's what he was saying, Donnie. Our cars don't meet their standards, so they place high tariffs on them to discourage purchase in their country.

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

He said specifically emission and mpg standards, so I figured there may be some hard data somewhere ans I was interested in seeing it to fulfill my car geekery. 

[Alex (Riptearkill)]

I probably shouldn't have given specific examples because I can't vouch for them but I do know that the standards in general are higher. Since they are part of the Kyoto Protocol i naturally assumed automobiles would be targeted with the examples i gave.

[Donnie (Arne)]

Could anyone explain the Kyoto protocol to me, or point to in the direction where I might find info on it?

[Donnie (Arne)]

How do you all feel about Univeral healthcare?   Can it work and How?

[Donnie (S3 / Jagor)]

I've got health care...  good health care because I pay for it.

I saw a statistic that the majority of people without health care make over $100k per year.  As in they are self employed and don't want to pay for health care...  So why should I ay for it?

There are SO many free clinics and hospitals are required by law to help anyone in mortal need as it is, so why are people trumpeting government health care?

Do you want the same government who fumbled Katrina, Iraq, Social Security, Education (I can go on and on) now responsible for your health care?

I think the overall quality would degrade significantly, just look at the quality of care in countries that already have this.  Hell, offhand I know that Moo had to wait A MONTH to get a toothache looked at!

People NEED to stop thinking the government can improve our lives, socialism has never worked, it just creates an elite ruling class who preys on those who are not in positions of authoeity within the system.

[Donnie (Arne)]

I am actually having to write a 8000 word paper on socialism and laws. 



And I don't think any form of government works like it should, but government is still nessecary imo.  Sometimes you just got to find the formula the works the best not perfect.

[Alex (Riptearkill)]

Donnie have you seen Sicko, I agree with you completely  but just wondering your take on it. If possible can you post a link to that statistic. @ arne http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4880

[Donnie (Arne)]

Thanks!