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Alex (Se7eN / leophanx)
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« on: May 09, 2008, 11:41:59 PM »

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=951_1189989944
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Alex (Se7eN / leophanx)
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« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2008, 11:43:38 PM »

I don't agree with his "Don't pay your taxes" philosophy, but he's raised some grim facts about the war. It's an ugly thing that needs to end.
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2008, 02:32:05 AM »

I'll go ahead and apoligize for the length of this post and probably any ignorant or offensive thoughts of mine.

First, I'll just state my opinion about this guy.  Mostly, I wouldn't believe anything he has to say just from his opening statements.  He could say the Earth is round, and I wouldn't believe it just to spite him.  Talking about people being prejudice against him because he's "dark-skinned and can grow a beard in Kentucky."  That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my entire life.  When 9/11 happened and you looked like you came from the Middle East, racists didn't "look at you funny."  They were extreme about it.  Sounds like some kind of self-delusion really.  I couldn't imagine anyone mistaking him for anything other than White/Caucasian.  Especially considering his other pictures.  He just seems to be living up whatever publicity he can get.  And I find it appauling that he tells people not to pay taxes.  He acts like 100% of your taxes go to fund the war.  It's more or less giving the finger to every single person in the entire US.  Tell them to do something pro-active or something.  I'd even feel better about telling them to move out of the country.  I may be wrong about him, but that's the impression I get.  Your perception is your reality.

Which leads me in to my thoughts on the war.  All this talk about terrorists, WMDs, Iraq, Saddam, Al'Qaeda, etc.  Right now, I have a hard time seperating fact from fiction.  I can barely remember all the news reports then and it's extremely difficult to look it up without someone throwing in their biased information in the mix.  I truley hate propaganda.  Did a plane or a self-inflicted missile hit the Pentagon?  Screw Michael Moore, give me some real facts; and not some dodgey footage from a 3-second interval security camera in the parking lot of a Wendy's four miles down the road.  I know that's not what it was, but you get the gist.  Remember when everyone thought there was going to be a draft because the media went crazy a few months after it was already killed at the first stage of it practically just being reevaluated?  I guess since then I've always tried real hard to take everything I hear with a grain of salt, which has probably lead to some ignorance on my behalf.

Basically, the general public was lead to believe that the nation of Iraq was responsible.  9/11 happened, we go to war.  Cause and effect.  I guess our main goal was to find and destroy WMDs and any production facilities.  We all thought they had them, who wouldn't?  We (possibly allegedly, but I remember it being a stern fact at one point) sold them VX nerve gas and mustard gas for the Iraq-Iran War, they use it on their own people (Well, Kurds.  I guess they didn't consider them "their people") in a genocide-like fashion after the war ends, and they were practically named the snake head for a very profound event on American soil.  All this over the length of two decades.  I remember being in school before we had even went to war and seeing where each person responsible for the plane crashes was from.  Not one from Iraq, but they were saying terrorists were being trained there.  I don't think you have to be born in a certain country to be trained for terrorist activity.  Still, I feel like there was a great amount of a misleading from the way they held their press conferences and stated their information.

He brings up about killing innocent people.  It's war, innocent people are going to die.  It's unavoidable.   But he alludes to a Vietnam War kind of mentality.  I guess you'd have to actually be there to know what goes on, but what he says just kind of sounds suspcious.  Sure, 135 was a big peak for soldiers lost.  But I just can't fathom those kinds of orders coming down from our present day military, even when it's 20% of the total casualities from invasion to Baghdad.  I've never served and I know war isn't all candy-coated lollipops.  But he makes it sound like he was *required* to shoot (worst-case scenario that pops in my head when he's describing it) women with a baby in hand and kids with her.  Orders were probably changed to a more survivability/safe mindset, but it sounds like some exagerration is going on to play it up.  Like they're telling everyone to knowingly kill innocent bystanders.  More or less, I don't buy it and I don't want to buy it.

What it really comes down to for me is this:  I may not be for the war for the reasons why we thought we went, but I'm glad Saddam nor his sons are in power.  Saying they were "evil-doers" is a complete understatement.  It's a bad perspective though because a lot of other countries could use that kind of attention too.  I believe the US shouldn't be policing the world like we're the big hall monitor and it was an easy way to gain popularity for the Iraq War in the beginning by our government's misleading.  And now we've suffered the concequences of unpopularity of our administration.  Our own citizens and other countries'.  I can't tell which happened first; against President Bush or against the war.

I'm sure the LaG guys who have served and are serving right now understand what's going on a lot better than I do (I'm practically dumb about it, so they better  Tongue), but I thought I'd just share some of my sheltered views about the video and the overall war just because the whole conflict has been bothering me lately.  One of the guys at work was all like, "We kill in Iraq for oil!  Iraq for oil!  War for oil!".  I mean, that's fine if you want to believe in that.  It does hold some water; although a very small amount.  But preaching anything like it's cold, hard facts when it isn't..  it's a lot of things besides irritating, especially with all that goes along with saying something like that.
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« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2008, 10:27:29 AM »

War is hell, there's absolutely no denying it.  It's hell in every sense of the word and I would never wish it on anyone.  With that said, sometimes it is an unfortunate necessity.  I believe in the case of Afghanistan (Remember that war?  It's the one we actually went to over 9/11, not Iraq) it was a necessity and I've found very few people who disagree, even at this juncture.  I didn't think Iraq was a necessity when it started and I don't think it was a good idea now.  HOWEVER, when that decision was made the President was riding a nearly 80% approval rating.  In other words, he could do no wrong.

In a few short years all that has changed.  I remember when President Bush was first talking about Iraq and people around me were saying "turn the whole place into a sheet of glass..."  That was hugely offensive to me then and it is now, but it shows the mentality at the time.  Now, those same people are calling Iraq a "Cluster f*ck" and criticizing President Bush for the decision to invade.  So the opinion of Iraq and our administration is MUCH less a reflection on the administration than it is a reflection on the immediate gratification hungry and fickle nature of Americans on a whole.

Now as for this guy, I've seen guys like him speak before.  And let me just say, right here and right now, anyone who is truly interested in doing what's best for their country can be considered a patriot.  But I have never, ever considered someone a patriot who wears an American flag upside down.  Beyond that his statements, agree or disagree, are pretty obviously anti-American sentiment from a Kentucky redneck who in his opening statement says he didn't pay his child support and got high instead.

In a broader sense, I get truly, truly sick of soldiers who stand up and say they didn't want to go to war.  It doesn't take a genius to understand that the one and only true job of a soldier is to die in war.  Look through history, it's considered the most honorable death a citizen can have.  Joining the military for money speaks more to the greed of the individual in my opinion, which is a character flaw that isn't supposed to be present in soldiers (who are supposed to be willing to give it all for the greater good).  This is a two-fold problem, on the way the military markets themselves now and the way people perceive both the role of a soldier and war in general.

Here's what I think, in a nutshell:
- The war in Iraq sucks, I don't want any more of my friends to go there and I don't want us blowing up Pakistan or Iran and causing half of our nation's youth to be drafted to support two more wars
- The war in Afghanistan is not over and should be taking our full attention, we have a real chance for success there right now
- People who want the government to provide health care, housing, food, whatever already have the option and it's calling joining the military, so if you think the government should take care of you join up, just don't bitch about the price they ask you to pay or the quality of services rendered
- Taxes are out of control in this country because of the way we collect them, they are the cause for every single major issue that presidential candidates are discussing today and most of those problems could be solved by collecting an x% (probably around 40%) federal sales tax in addition to local taxes
- Americans need to learn and understand the realities of war, because we're much too quick to start one and support those who do
- America is hated for whatever we do, if we don't help (Darfur) we get a bad rap, if we do help (Afghanistan, Iraq) we get a bad rap, every time the U.N. decides that something needs to be done (Myanmar) we are leaned on as the one to provide and we'll be hated either way (Myanmar's government not letting US assets assist with 100,000 dead to a natural disaster)

I could continue, but I'm sure I've offended enough people already...

Gutsy post Alex, I'm sure it'll get some interesting discussion started.  Smiley
« Last Edit: May 10, 2008, 10:31:09 AM by Donnie (S3 / Jagor) » Logged



Andrew (I2ed3ye)
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« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2008, 12:03:33 PM »

I guess after waking up this morning, I feel great knowing that people are offended.  It means they actually care.  I guess that's what's so great right now.  Everyone has a voice they want to express about politics right now.  They all want what's best for our country.  It's a pretty good feeling knowing people actually want to be involved.

But I do like the idea of badmouthing this guy all day.  He just seems like a tool.
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« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2008, 06:49:51 PM »

I must have missed something...  what video?
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« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2008, 07:37:39 PM »

I must have missed something...  what video?

Missed something as in... didn't read the original post?  Wink
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Alex (Se7eN / leophanx)
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« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2008, 04:01:27 AM »

Actually I'll clarify my post.

The points that I found to be true about the video, sadly are applicable to ALL wars. So in no way am I giving credit to the man in this video concerning this particular war.

War has never been anything nice, but it's been with us since the dawn of time.


I agree with you also Donnie, when you mention what a soldier does and is. It's an honorable position in which a man fights for his country. A man should KNOW that you're sticking nails in your coffin by signing up. You might very well die, or you might very well come back home, that's a chance you have to know and assume before even considering this. That would be like working in a stable and quitting because it smells like shit.

From my point of view, I think it's more Bush than the people of the USA who's getting a bad rep. We can see, as well as the entire planet, that Bush isn't your all time favorite president. Have you ever googled "Monkey + Bush" ..Screw that, just Google "Bush" on it's own and you'll find more than enough ridicule about him to last an afternoon of laughs. He has to be the most ridiculed president in the history of the USA?

Given the fact that I'm Canadian, even if we have a lot of differences, we're not so far apart than we like to make fun of each other. We're exposed to pretty much the same media, we are closely tied when it comes to politics, we're in this war with you, and basically whatever affects us, affects you, and vice versa. I really don't get the feel that "Americans" are getting a bad rep. I'm really thinking all eyes are on Bush. It's easy to see that it's not every American who agrees with how things are going, how things have been delt with, etc, and well, once your president is elected, he pretty much makes the choices, or should I say, his office does. That's pretty much the way it works here too. You only have so much information about one person before you elect him to run your country. I doubt there will be a day where we get to personally inspect the presidential candidates or prime ministers under scrutiny before voting for them. It's up to you to do your homework should you want to be more up to date.

Bottom line is, I wanted to correct a few things about my initial post, but I still think that this war has been going on too long.

Gutsy post maybe, but as long as we can stay civil, I love these conversations  Wink
« Last Edit: May 13, 2008, 04:04:12 AM by Alex (Se7eN / leophanx) » Logged

Bane
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« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2008, 06:44:30 AM »

I guess when I initially looked at this post it didnt all load , because that link wasn't there  Tongue
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Alex (Riptearkill)
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« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2008, 02:36:40 PM »

http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5207&news_iv_ctrl=1021
long but worth reading not saying i agree but would like to invoke discussion
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Donnie (S3 / Jagor)
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2008, 07:17:04 PM »

http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5207&news_iv_ctrl=1021
long but worth reading not saying i agree but would like to invoke discussion

You've gotten so much better at this man... It's gone from seeming argumentative to seeming excited to debate.  Props.
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« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2008, 06:28:53 AM »

Applause.. 
I totally and completely agree.We as a nation have yet to focus our war machine on the correct target
in the middle east. I think Sadam needed to go, but Iran , well that article says it all. My 2 cents.
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